Émilie Narcy
Recruitment is connecting to people. Whether you’re an employer and a candidate, or a recruitment agency with your client and your candidate, it’s all about that.

Sylvie Milverton
Hi, I’m Sylvie Milverton, CEO of Lynx Educate. This is Talent is Everywhere. We are here to talk about how to keep talent and how to develop talent. In order to build a strong business. We’ll interview leaders to hear their best experiences of how they invested in people.

Sylvie Milverton
So today we are speaking in English with two French guests who run a recruitment firm called Approach People in Dublin, Laurent Girard-Claudon and Émilie Narcy, Welcome to the podcast.

Émilie Narcy
Thank you very much.

Laurent Girard-Claudo
Hello.

Sylvie Milverton
So this is a nice episode where we’re gonna get to talk a lot about like international mobility and you know, international careers, which is something, you know, we all have in common. And we were speaking before, you know, Laurent your background.

You can tell us in a minute how you decided to start this firm, but that, you know, you were in France and you moved to Dublin and I mean the, also you’ve been on this journey. So, Laurent, why don’t you start by just telling us your story, like how you from not an HR and recruitment background, how it ended up that you, you know, founded this firm.

Laurent Girard-Claudo
Oh yes, thank you very much for welcoming us today. I’d say it’s a pleasure to chat. We’ve spoken already and I think, yeah, we’re gonna have a good time together. So just like a few years ago, last millennium, it was 1999 and the company I was working for offer me to move to Dublin.

It was, I was working in cash management in Paris, it was all good in Paris, I was very happy and no way I would leave the country. Like know the, so many things to do, the weather. Like I loved France and I never really thought about moving abroad, so the opportunity arose and I said, why not? You know what?

I just go spend a few months and become bilingual in English which I’m still waiting for 25 years later. And do it. We will see. And that was. I don’t know the best for the worst decision of my life, but it completely changed my life because I didn’t expect that. But I love the country so much, the people, the business side of Ireland as well, that I have, I stayed over for all these years and I have absolutely no plan to go back.

Sylvie Milverton
Yeah. Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah. And I can, yeah, definitely relate from all my, you know, international travels. But What about you, Émilie, how did you end up from France into Dublin as well?

Émilie Narcy
When I was very young, I had recruitment experience in France. But I was wondering, I was a bit lost, I think, in my life. I didn’t know really. What was next? I felt that I had done so much and I was only 25 and everything happened. I was quite sad. And one of my friends said, well, you do speak English.

So, move abroad, you’re not happy. Do something. So, I put my CV online and approach people. This guy called me to become an international recruitment consultant. So, I started in 2008 with Laurent in Dublin. He gave me the opportunity to open then at the office in Barcelona as he was growing the structure internationally.

Then I left Approach People actually a couple of years later, and I joined an international firm in Spain that gave me the possibility to move to the US. So, I lived in America for about a year, and then they sent me to Asia and I lived in Asia for two years and a half across Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, China.

I came back to Spain and I thought I missed Dublin so bad that was the place where I was meant to be. So, I came back and I joined Laurent again now to continue growth in Approach People.

Sylvie Milverton
Yeah. Oh, that’s amazing. Yeah. I love these like international career stories and so maybe we’ll, like during the time we talk, we can sort of take two perspectives, like one from the company perspective, like how you see like companies evolving and what they’re looking for.

And then also just like I think personally. You know, what it means to like have these like international missions and international relocations. You know, even though I’m half French, you know, I grew up in America, you can, I’m American maybe in my mindset and so yeah, just like with a richness I can totally relate of like where your kind of in one place and you live your life and you feel at home in a new place that maybe isn’t fully your one.

So, Laurent maybe you can like share this, like what are client, like what are companies looking for? You’re working mostly with French companies who are placing people internationally or how are you seeing like this impact of like English and Internationality and you know, what companies need and why they look for you?

Laurent Girard-Claudo
Yeah, it’s, it’s funny because when we arrived here, there was a huge need for French speakers in Ireland. That was the how it started. We saw like all these big American companies coming to Ireland to settle their headquarters for Europe and they were looking for staff. And there is not enough people in Ireland to fulfill the positions.

So that’s where we said, look, there’s maybe an opportunity for us. I never worked in recruitment before, but I saw a need that we will apply our knowledge of American companies and Ireland and the business. Two, the candidates would be coming from France with their own way of speaking, of presenting their CVs and of like the, their own, like some words, some companies, some are very famous in this country, but not at all in another.

So, this is where we were the link between the two countries, and this is, it was the DNA of approach people recruitment, because that’s what we did after, over the years between different countries. Because we opened first in Dublin and then we opened a company in France and then one in Switzerland.

And then we develop like that. We are now in Dubai, in Spain, in Germany, and always focusing on these needs for companies to find people from everywhere in Europe with languages, with experience. Sometimes some people they couldn’t find in their own country. So, we have absolutely no problem to locate anybody in Europe.

For any companies, in any, for any department, wherever they are. It could be in France, it could be in Germany, it could be anywhere. And this is, we realized the need and was, it’s a growing need of people with skills and languages and ready to relocate. And this is where we decided to focus.

Sylvie Milverton
And what is the deal, like, why do you find that companies like particularly looking for people like to relocate. cause on the one hand you could think, I mean, I guess one could be the, the language need. Like I suppose if you’re working in France, you need people in Dublin that speak French.

But is this something like, like an openness? cause you would maybe think like it’s like expensive and that wouldn’t you try to find like the people locally, like, are they specifically looking like, oh, we want international people, or it’s literally like a skills shortage and you have to find them from somewhere else?

Laurent Girard-Claudo
Oh, that’s absolutely both of them like sometimes it’s just a shortage of people who, we work in Switzerland and the market is kind of, there’s no employment there, so they’re looking for maybe staff with the experience from abroad and the languages again.

Plus, the fact maybe, some people with a different view, some people with different background that will complement the team they have. And at the same time, yes, companies will look for people because of where they come from like we see like here, like the French, they have a set of mind that is very looked for in Ireland, like we are light for what, what we can do at work.

So sometimes it’s just the question of bringing new skills, new languages, new way of working to another company.

Émilie Narcy
They don’t always expatriate either. They relocate. So, when we talk about expatriation, there is the real expect image where you go and with your family and there is a house and there is a car, and there is all of that.

But there is also, the relocation of people that want to experience a new adventure with a local contract with immersing themself in really the local culture the candidates are looking for that too as well. So, it’s expatriation, but it’s relocation as well. And then there is international recruitment where company actually want to go abroad, for the local market.

So, they don’t want to relocate a French person to discover the Spanish market. They want Spanish people that will understand the French culture, that will be able to make the link and help them to grow their business abroad.

And that is not only with languages, that’s with culture fit that with the sense of what you get when you work in a country that only if you travel. If you leave abroad, you can understand. Truly from the inside.

Sylvie Milverton
Mm-hmm. And how do you find like that a company can, well prepare for one of these cases? like if you like, maybe can think of an example, you know, like a client and they come to you with a case.

I mean, it’s one thing to say like, listen, we want to expand in this market and we want people, or as you’re giving the example of like an Irish company that wants like the French mindset, because I feel like it’s one of the thing, and you know, I don’t know, I’m not in your business where you could have an imagination of how it is and then in the reality is not really how it is. So, what, how do you work with a company so that they like, define correctly what they’re looking for?

Émilie Narcy
Well in recruitment the first thing is to ask question and to understand the why. What are you trying to achieve? What are you looking for in terms of skills, in terms of cultural fit?

What are you trying to, and for many, many, many decades, we always talk about stereotypes and they still have a hard way to sneak in into recruitment processes, you know? The French, we do have a reputation, the good one, and the stereotypes that people carry over the years that are true or not true, actually.

So, they have those characteristic of kind of qualities, or effect that they want to have on their business, and that’s how we guide them. They have preconceived image of what it is to work with a German person, what it is to work with a French person. And we need it to explain if it’s true or if it’s not true, and explain vice versa to the candidates.

Why we’re expert now is because we can explain to a German candidate what it is to work with a Spanish company or French company, and is it going to suit them? Is it really wanting? It is one thing. Being able to do it is another one. So, we help them because we lived through that ourself.

Our consultant, they’re all native, they all worked in different countries. We did it as well, what it is. So, it’s asking question and trying to discover if it’s just a stereotype or if the what is behind this need.

Sylvie Milverton
Mm-hmm. And how else, you know, what are some of the like success stories like Laurent that you can fit?

Like what’s your ideal situation of, you know, this is the kind of company and this is the way that they’ve like, framed, framed the problem of where the internationality. Like make sense, you know what I mean? Like what’s like to avoid these stereotypes, like an example of a company like doing something and you think like, okay, this is the, the good way to think about filling positions like with international recruitment as opposed to falling in like a trap of saying, okay, I can just solve this with a magic wand because I have this imagination of what it would be like, you know?

Laurent Girard-Claudo
It’s funny because I remember, this person I spoke with, she was American and we organized a meeting and I thought like, I would be welcome, kind of. But no, it was just a meeting with her in front of the reception desk and say, how we going? So, she said, no, no, that’s it. Like, I don’t have time for you.

I only have five minutes. Okay. Right. So that’s a bit short, but okay there, but first, just to let you know, I don’t really like French people. And I hate recruitment agencies. Okay. I was a bit, I was not very experienced, but I love this situation but that’s okay, that’s now my time to shine and to show this lady that us French people are not that bad and agencies are not that useless.

We, we are here for a reason and it finally lasted two hours and I visited all the offices. I cannot really name of the company, but that’s a huge one. And we worked with them since. And it’s mad because they really developed. And the feeling they have for agencies and friendship I’m sure changed there because the now like we work together.

But it, it just, the idea of what we brought was why didn’t she like us? she said, yeah, because you always think like you will stay forever and you don’t, and agencies, you always say like, you have the base candidates, you are specialist of this and that, and no you are not. And say, look. I can tell you that we speak French to the French, so we will know exactly what they’re looking for, and I can commit that they will stay for a long period of time.

And I can promise you as well, like we specialize in the French market. So, I will know exactly what you are looking for in terms of like degrees and experience. And I’m not going to tell you lies. And that’s what worked the building trust with the customers and the candidates to, to really look at them in the eye and say, look, if I tell you something, it’s because I’m sure I can do it.

Not trying to sell them false promises. And that’s what worked, that’s what created a development kind of a solid relationship. And that’s why we call as well, Approach People recruitment because we really try to go and create a link with our partners and basically, especially in the world we live in.

But we realize what is very important is the human touch, the human community, the fact that we can appreciate each other. And then it becomes a pleasure to work if you just in front of your computer, dealing with figures, numbers, and virtual reality. And no, that’s not the same. I don’t think like that.

How we really enjoy ourselves. But if we meet people, if we interact, if we help each other, this is where happiness stands and this is why we are happy to work, since the last 25 years.

Sylvie Milverton
Right? Yeah. Like it’s more fun, more fun than cash than cash management. And do you have to do more work like in terms of integrating new candidates?

So, if you’re thinking like these international, like either as expat or relocation or however it’s gonna be, is it harder? Like to get the company like ready to receive the person? or harder to get the candidate, like ready to go? or it’s just you have to do work with both of them to like ensure success?

Émilie Narcy
Well, it’s with both of them, really you have to prepare the personal context of the candidate and anticipate what they will go through, what happens, the blues maybe that happens after three months that you haven’t seen in your family where it is how to avoid falling into traps.

And the same with the company receiving. They usually, especially at the beginning, they usually take a lot of care. When it’s someone from a different nationality or a different project that take a lot of care. It’s very special. For them. So, they’re really open to understand what they need, how can they approach them?

And they call us back as well to say, what do you think I should do in that situation? I want to make sure this person feels okay. Is she going to be open to me, et cetera, et cetera. So, it’s really with both.

Sylvie Milverton
And how, what advice do you give to candidates? Because I even know, like from my own experience, I’ve lived like of course in lots of countries and you think you’re ready, like you do the research on like where you’re gonna live and the culture and you read about it and the weather and the whole thing.

And sometimes, yeah, at the beginning you’re like quite excited, but it’s hard. Like you’re far, you’re working in an environment that’s different. And again, I say this from my own experience of being somebody, like I love international things. I speak a lot of languages. I get so much energy from like being on an adventure, but it can still be tiring.

Like working a whole day in a language isn’t your own comfortable language with just office norms with just way of, you know, like my way of working as American. So, I would never be so rude as that lady that you meant. But I do also sort of get it where you’re like, listen guy, I got five minutes, like da da da da, da.

And you know, and then you work in other countries and things are more, you know, long and slow. So yeah. Just going back, like how do you prepare candidates for just like the inevitable. Just emotional stress of these things.

Laurent Girard-Claudo
So, you know, we always tell people to get hobby, as you said, get, don’t just go because you feel like it’s suddenly like, no, you, you prepare yourself.

Like read what’s online and save some money before going as well because you don’t want to be in some kind of financial precarity if you arrive in a new place. You want to enjoy the life a little bit and maybe, yeah, a bit of saving before you go and then after get prepared. But once you’re there, the big advice is really meet the locals.

That’s really the big difference because we see that we help companies as well from to set up a business in France, and that’s what we tell them as well. If you send people from America, from wherever you are based to the country, for them to feel like happy and to stay and to really feel involved, try as much as possible to meet people, not the same nationality as you because it’s too easy.

Because you are kind of like you never like really in like you are one step in, one step out. But meet people who are local, speak their language, get their habits, even like, try to find a stupid expression that they use on a daily basis and really mix with them.

And that’s how things work if you can as well get a car or make, get from, of stability when you arrive in a new country because else you never feel right where you belong. And you might always think that, okay, one day I will live anyway, so why would I invest in that in this?

So, we, that’s what we say to people as soon as possible mix and get involved in the local community with the locals and that this is our like a, you’ll find some, some happiness. And that’s the real sense of discovery and adventure is when you forget where you come from and really when you adapt to a new environment.

Sylvie Milverton
And then how do you recommend, like, sometimes obviously people are gonna go for like one spouse’s job, often the husband, but it can also be the wife, of course. And what do you like recommend in terms of like how the spouse can integrate? cause that can also create, you know, stress and tension.

Laurent Girard-Claudo
In for example, the easiest thing is you go to the pub. You go on your own and say like, it’s not, it could be weird in some countries to go to the pub by yourself and say, look, I don’t know anybody.

How would people see me here? It’s just, you won’t stay here. Like you won’t stay alone for a long time. People come, could be anybody, could be any kind of person will join and talk to you, and as soon as they know that you are Franco French. They will be so happy and they will try to speak to you and say, look, by the way we’re going there afterward, if you want to join us, if you, so that’s the way, like just push doors or open doors, go, even in the street, like you speak to people like to know what they’re going like, or sometimes they just open a map.

You know, and people will come and try to help you and guide you or go to a park and read a book, and make sure, like when you read your books, like to look around at other people. And that’s the way naturally, as soon as even on by yourself, even without taking a big effort, just show up to a new place and you’ll see like naturally people will come to you.

Sylvie Milverton
Mm-hmm. Actually that’s good. Yeah. Good advice for anyone. You know, I’m interested, you know, you call your company Approach People and like all of your discussion is really like around like the human experience and you and your company, how you’re, you know, it’s a lot about asking and talking and how to meet people and I’m just like, my big question, you know, you’ve been in recruitment for 25 years, like, what about technology?

Like how are you seeing. I guess it’s two questions. One is how do you use technology in your company? And also, you know, we’ve all seen, you know, you apply for jobs. I have postdocs, my company, and I received like 200 CVs. Like it feels like technology is like. You know, losing the human product. I’m just interested in how you’re using it, how you’ve seen it change, and what’s your opinion about everything happening now?

Laurent Girard-Claudo
It’s funny because you were talking about the day we started the company; it was the last millennium. And by saying that it’s really, it’s mad our much, in 25 years, the world changed in a technological point of view. Considering like before there was not even anywebsite, you know, like it was really the beginning, like to connect to the internet.

We had to disconnect our phone line to connect and remember this noise of the modem connecting and then to check our emails like, so it was a different way, to work. And we have to meet people face to face. We had to go and meet the clients like to take our little map to go and find the person.

Like you go to the train station to get a ticket. So, it was so different in terms of finding a job you had to physically buy the newspapers and check what was there like for you to apply to, or to go to some bureau, employment bureau? To apply or meet people, meet advisors.

Well, 25 years later, that’s a different world. We don’t need to leave the comfort of our desk to travel the world at the speed of light. We can meet people from any background, any us. We can meet candidates like this anywhere in the world. Same with clients. We don’t need to have a local presence anymore really.

And so, in terms of physical. Like meetings, they tend to disappear. But we create, like thanks to this the high-quality videos that we are sharing right now, for example that’s perfect. It’s like we can replace, and by working all these years as well, we develop some way to assess the motivation of people even if we don’t meet them.

All the, the desire of clients. And the other aspect is that the database we are using is so efficient. There’s no more faxes or CV or printing documents. Like, no, everything happens like just kind of at the, we just have to click some documents, some the computer can do research for us. And it’s just amazing.

The technology changed completely the world. But in the recruitment sector, it can transform everything as well for candidates and for agencies and for clients as well. We communicate so fast, we organize things so quickly. It just became a pleasure to do business with technology.

Émilie Narcy
And they don’t contradict each other either because the technology equipment we’re not so human.

Where everything is virtual. We actually do talk to more people now with technology that we did when we were in person. My first experience when I arrived as Approach People, and again, it was the, it was a long time ago, so it was the beginning of Skype, not even Zoom or Teams or all of that, was the beginning of Skype.

So, talking to people across the world was on over the phone and my biggest fear was how will I connect with my candidate over the phone without seeing them, without feeling their energy in person. And then you have to rely on techniques and actually focus on the person. And how do you interview people to create disconnection?

Over the phone to do that. And now technology has actually helped because we can see people, we can read people. There is so many nonverbal communications that happens when we see each other in video and on the phone, and learning how to do that, we became better and we could talk to much more people. Thanks to technology, we can reach many more people across the globe than when we didn’t have it.

Sylvie Milverton
Yeah, that makes sense. And actually, it’s interesting, cause I get almost frustrated by the technology cause it’s like so easy to apply for a job and just click, click, click. And you see like the tool like generates the CV and the letter for the person and you think a robot is applying.

But the way I dealt with this frustration, and I’ll be interested in your feedback, is it forced me to be like really, really specific about what I was looking for. Like not just the kind of person, but what were like that. Outcomes like when I post a job or when I’m looking even for a consulting assignment for someone to join us, like be super specific.

And in that way, even with like the flood of AI and all these like generated things, I’ve actually been able to, well find the person. So, it’s like the technology kind of forced me to do the work that probably you should do anyway.

Émilie Narcy
Yeah. Well, it’s all about human connection. Recruitment is connecting to people, whether you’re an employer and a candidate, a recruitment agency with your client and your candidate, it’s all about that.

So, AI and technology is going to help automatize a few things, but we think that we have a better future if we actually connect on the essence. And that’s why there is a future for recruitment agency because everything goes so fast that an employer doesn’t have the time to screen all of that.

But you do need to talk to people that unexpectedly will create something and you can feel that. We talk about taking off your bias when you interview people, making it safer and non-discriminatory. And it is true. And then you have this spark that happens in a CV that was not the perfect one.

Only the human eye will feel that. And then you have to dig deep. So, the human connection and the recruitment agency, the good ones, that’s what we’ll focus on. People, the people that you meet, understand your client. We insist very often, we refuse to work with client that say, oh, here is a job description.

Send me candidates. That’s, that is not how we can work. We want to feel the person that is going to work with you. It’s important. So, I want to understand how you are, what feels important, what is in your language, what is in your requirement? Why is that important to you? Because something will happen there that then we will be able to identify in candidates and make the match happen.

Sylvie Milverton
That’s really nice. Yeah, and maybe just like looking forward, Laurent, I’d be interested in your take. You know, like now if we think of just like stepping like way back from the candidates, sort of the macro, economic and sociopolitical moment that we are in, that I think, you know, maybe we could summarize well a lot of different words, but I think uncertainty is one that feels fairly.

Maybe it could be universally agreed. Like, how are you just, you know, you who are talking to companies, like, how are you feeling it, are they still wanting to hire? Are they feeling like, let’s wait, like we don’t know, are they, like, how are you, how is the market? And what are companies telling you now

Laurent Girard-Claudo
That’s something interesting because we talk to our staff and some of them say, oh, it’s so hard at the moment. Like, you know, like so much uncertainty. Like we are in trouble times and yeah, okay. What do you compare it to? before it was so different. It was easier. Was it really easier when was the last time you told me, oh, it’s so easy to work here today, or like, it’s so that, that’s funny because people always think that they are in the worse situation that they were before, but when in the past they were not saying, wow, I’m enjoying my job, so making so much money as like, I wake up, I do nothing.

And so No, no, no, no, no. It’s always been difficult and of course like when you listen to the news, it’s scary. Like even this morning, they were saying, and even yesterday night, so like sometimes it’s not even for weeks now, it’s like every few hours you have some more bad news. How do you adapt to that?

And I say in a way. When you look at it, because now it’s been a couple of years, we’ve been through so many crises. It started with nine eleven. So, we thought like, wow, that’s going to be the end of the business and be followed by the sub subprime crisis once say, okay, that’s it. Finished. And after that we have COVID.

Okay. We’ve never come back from that. And you see, and now we look at what’s happening and over the last couple of years as well, like there’ll be so many bad news, so many things that are scary. But in the end. Like the people are resilient. The business is still going. So, if we come, if we look at the bad news and say, look, absolutely no hope, no way.

And now we look at the old bad news and say, oh no, finally we went through that and it was fine. Like we survived and we developed and we learned and that’s a bit the same today to say, look, we need to adapt. And if we look at the good news, the good side of it, of course some companies are letting people go, but there’s so many others.

Hiring so many new jobs being created. So many shifts as well. Like we saw, for example, the automotive sector was struggling a little bit, and then suddenly the green sector, like the, we were hiring plenty of engineers, so there was a shift from one sector to the other. Same with luxury products. For example.

We saw that people selling in shops were kind of like looking for a job and then hotels were hiring. So, there was a possible shift from one set of the skills to the other in another department or company or sector. So, there’s always opportunities and that’s really what we say, what we are saying again yesterday.

Are we opportunists? Yes. Is it a bad thing? No. You know, so like opportunity could be good. Opportunism sounds a bit weird, but I think we need to adapt to what’s coming. And there’s always beautiful things to look at.

Sylvie Milverton
Amazing. I love that. I love that summary. And yeah, I agree with you that, yeah, from moments of stress come opportunity and I am, yeah, moved and really happy to hear you’re just like total optimism.

And here, if we go back to stereotypes and everything, I totally get why as a French person, you feel at home and happy in Ireland close to France where we’ve been living with like for la crise 50 years. Like, une crise après l’autre. Which one is it? Yes, but it is amazing, yeah, to keep smiling and keep seeing the opportunity. And from all of these, like, uncertainties come, you know, new industries and yeah, new development,

Émilie Narcy
Everybody can get there.

I feel that within every day, and you get inspired every day. You can train your brain to think this way to actually look at it, the human is super resilient and if you get the methodology to think, to look at what can happen, you can train that. I think French people are very resilient and they are doing it more and more.

We’ll be surprised again.

Sylvie Milverton
I think so, the Croissant will take over the world. Amazing. Well thank you so much and thank you. So nice to talk to you.

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